Comments for UBFriends.org

Comment on Friendship by John Peace

John Peace — Sat, 19 May 2012 13:10:30 +0000

Yes, the communication between Chris and Ben is quite intriguing. But I just wanted to answer David’s comment of why I felt that this site was not always UBF friendly. Sorry David for making you wait so long. Well, for one thing I heard that one person was either asked or no longer allowed to give his comments on this site because they were very negative and very anti-UBF. That could be one reason that prompted me to say so. I guess also when people write comments out of bitterness or anger about past unfortunate events it doesn’t come across so well with those who serve God in this ministry. This is not to excuse them or try to pretend they did not exist. Secondly, I thought that many who have written comments in the past have either left UBF or planning to leave UBF. So it seems ironic to me that though they are sincere, I guess, in their desire to change some practices in UBF they are either no longer or in a very difficult position to create any kind of revolutionary changes in the ministry. They are just throwing stones from a distance, so to speak. I agree with Chris, Ben, and many others that changes must change with the members who are already in the ministry. Otherwise, we have to do what Jesus did and scrap the old system and start over with twelve disciples. Even though I don’t feel like a herald for this change I will say as my wife did that we learned a lot from the good and bad experiences we have had and are praying and doing our best to apply the good things we learned and be a Jesus-centered ministry. Only Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth.

Comment on Silence and Solitude (Bonhoeffer) by James Kim

James Kim — Fri, 18 May 2012 21:19:28 +0000

Hi Ben, thank you for the wonderful article from Bonhoeffer. Peter Scazerro talked about similar ideas in his book, “Emotionally healthy spirituality”. He talked about the examples of the Benedictin monks disciplined life like this. “The monks were well disciplined with daily rules: (5 hours labor, 3 hours of study, many times a day have time of silence and solitude. They have fixed hour of prayer to be with God” Although it is not easy to follow the exact lifestyles of the monks, I believe the principle is important especially in this busy, busy life of 21st century. “Ora et labora” (pray and work) was their motto. This kind of lifestyle helped and contributed to maintain the western Christianity for the last 1500 years. More than ever before we need this kind of life style if we want to survive spiritually in this post Christian era.

Comment on The State of Christianity in Korea by LukeL

LukeL — Fri, 18 May 2012 04:08:04 +0000

When one address about Gospel or Christian spirituality, it must be addressed in terms of human nature or God’s characters.
One thing we know is that all human being, no matter how good they have become, as time went on, as long as we live in the world under the power of sin, will degrade to spiritual malaise unless he or she is renewed by by the power of the cross in ongoing bases.
This is truth in each individual as well as a group or a nation. This has happened in Europe and is happening in US. Korea is no exception. Do we have to bring down our spirit by these?
I like to rejoice in what God is doing in many other parts of the world. Particularly I am very happy to see what God is doing in China. Jesus said the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit [Matt 22:43]. Once he did, and he will do again any time. We are not exempt from it.

Comment on Friendship by Maria Peace

Maria Peace — Thu, 17 May 2012 17:21:26 +0000

You’re welcome:)

Comment on Friendship by Ben T

Ben T — Thu, 17 May 2012 14:05:24 +0000

Hi Chris, Honestly, I am also in a “very ordinary” local Protestant church (that happens to be a UBF local church). Thanks for Steve Martin’s article which I will read very carefully and possibly blog on one of these days, for it surely speaks to many sins of UBF, including myself, for which I wish to increasingly address.

Yes, whoever causes even the littlest ones to sin should tie a millstone around their neck and toss it into the ocean next to the sunk Titanic. Yes, UBF leaders whose authoritarian spiritual abuses have hurt people should repent. Ultimately and ideally, repentance is before God and visible to the church and the world. But sinners, including leaders, are so flawed that their repentance might seem fake, insincere or even not evident at all. Ultimately, God will be their Judge. Just as we forgive our “sheep” for their sins, we likewise forgive our “shepherd” for their sins, regardless of whether they think they need to be forgiven or not.

As hard as it may be to forgive Lee and others, it is for my own peace and joy that I do. When I forgive them in my own heart before God, I cannot demand that they accept my forgiveness if they can’t “see” that they have sinned against me. Nonetheless, as Christ forgave me, I should forgive them. Here’s a couple of quotes I found useful for myself:

“There is no deeper pathos in the spiritual life of man than the cruelty of righteous people.” Reinhold Niebuhr, An Interpretation of Christian Ethics

“Forgiving love is a possibility only for those who know that they are not good, who feel themselves in need of divine mercy…and know that the differences between the good man and the bad man are insignificant in (God’s) sight.” Niebuhr

“Forgiveness places us on a boundary between enmity and friendship, between exclusion and embrace. It tears down the wall of hostility that wrongdoing erects, but it doesn’t take us into the territory of friendship. Often, that’s all we can muster the strength to do, and all that offenders will allow us.” Miroslav Volf, Free of Charge: Giving and Forgiving in a Culture Stripped of Grace

God willing, one day my wife and I may visit Germany and visit you.

Comment on GLBT Evangelism by Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Thu, 17 May 2012 13:38:48 +0000

So for the "GL" people, there are two viable options I see: celibacy or marriage. I believe these are the same two options for "H" people (heterosexual). The "B" people are in a dangerous place from Scripture's viewpoint. Perhaps they should be extended grace until they figure out who they are. The "T" people need extra love and discernment. In conclusion, I suggest we get past the HGLBT issue (as Scripture does) by putting proper avenues for control and separation of church/state in place, and move on to the far greater issues of life. Has Freud deceived the entire Western world into thinking HGLBT is our primary identity? Could not two men embrace each other as friends without ridicule? Could not a man and a woman be dear friends without suspicion?

Comment on Listening is Greater than Speaking by Ben T

Ben T — Thu, 17 May 2012 12:19:35 +0000

Thanks, Maria. It’s so much fun to copy Bonhoeffer’s words. Is this the movie: http://vimeo.com/29526942?

Comment on Friendship by Chris

Chris — Thu, 17 May 2012 10:53:50 +0000

I’ve no doubt Samuel Lee treated many people good. But I don’t think that’s something that distinguishes him from other authoritarian leaders. If you want to be an authoritarian dictator you can’t treat everybody badly. That just won’t work. You also need to have a charming and charismatic side and have some people around you who trust you and who would do everything for you. These people you will treat differently.
I don’t think unwillingness to repent should be easily pardoned, at least not in the church. If you read Mt 18,15ff, it becomes clear that somebody who is unregenerate and unrepentant should not even be considered as a Christian anymore. That does not mean that there isn’t a chance that God will forgive him in the end because only He can look deeply into the heart of anybody. But still, the church should have a very clear stance towards such people. 1Cor 5:4-12 is another example from the Bible. I don’t understand how UBF members can read the Bible every week and not understand and apply such simple principles about church discipline from the Bible.
You say anybody is fully responsible for his own sins and cannot excuse by referring to some bad influence. I agree in principle, but I’m not so sure about “fully”. Even earthly judges account for bad education and childhood etc. when judging about criminals. It does not excuse everything, but if even we take it into account I’m sure God will also take it into account in some way.
Steve Martin’s article on “authoritarianism in the church” talks about “sins of the shepherds” and “sins of the sheep”. Both exist. In the same way as Samuel Lee had bad influence on those below him, these people inversely had bad influence back on Samuel Lee – they flattered him, puffed up his ego, made him believe his power had no limits and tempted him to check that out. That’s why I think authoritarian systems are so dangerous and harmful.
I agree that we should try to live in peace and unity with one another as much as possible. I know very well how sad it is when peace and unity is destroyed, because I experienced how UBF was split in half in 2001. I hope you and this website can help bring back peace and unity. The only limit is that we can’t compromise with the truth. God is both love and truth. We should keep that in mind. When Christians start talking with each other honestly and frankly, there is a good chance reconciliation can be achieved.
If you ever go to Germany, come and visit me. Same invitation holds for everyone who has an open mind and wants to speak personally to me. I’m currently attending an “ordinary” local Protestant church.

Comment on Listening is Greater than Speaking by Maria Peace

Maria Peace — Thu, 17 May 2012 05:50:31 +0000

You are right about one thing Ben, these points are hard to practice as a Christian. Did you see the movie, “Amish Grace?” It is a true story about the Amish community. Where a gunman came to their school and shot school girls and 7 of them died. The parents of the victims forgave the murderer and tried to help his widow and children. But it was not easy. One of our daughters said if God gives her future family a son she would want to name him, “Dietrich.” Thank you for posting these articles on the written work of Bonhoeffer.

Comment on Community (Life Together, Dietrich Bonhoeffer) by Ben T

Ben T — Thu, 17 May 2012 01:21:00 +0000

John Frame on the importance of fellowship/community (from Salvation is from the Lord):

“Without God’s grace, we are lost. And we need God’s grace not only at the beginning of the Christian life but throughout. So, naturally we ask, where can we go to find God’s continuing grace to us? Where do we go to get the resources for sanctification, for continuing spiritual growth? The short answer is that there are three places: the Word, fellowship, and prayer.
Except for the second, we can find those resources either privately or publicly. The second, fellowship, is by definition public. But we can receive the Word either by individual Bible study or through the public preaching and teaching of the church. And we can pray, of course, either privately or publicly. In our private use of the means of grace, we come to God as members of the church, the body of Christ. Apart from Christ, our Bible study and prayer will not help us. Indeed, we need other members of the church to help us understand the Bible and to teach us how to pray. So, in an important sense, even the private means of grace are within the church. . . .
It is not typical in Reformed theology to regard fellowship as a means of grace. But I think it clearly is. Remember all the passages . . . on one-anothering? Those make it plain that our spiritual health depends on one another — both what other believers do for us and what we do for them. The larger concept that includes all those one-anotherings is the concept of fellowship.”