Comments on: You eat-a no meat-a?! http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: c http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19140 Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:45:18 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19140 “Against my better judgment, I am posting this report from the Central Pennsylvania Summer Bible Conference. Enjoy!”

Oh, man, I thought that was an actual, published ubf.org article until the last page. The picture looked authentic as well. :)

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By: cmdiaz http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19056 Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:56:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19056 Thank you for this insightful article. This reminds me of a close friend of mine and his wife who escaped from the UBF cult when I was still a “sheep”.
He described his breaking point when he and his wife decided to become vegetarians.
They were shamed for an entire week by UBF cult leaders and forced to do ” Kogi Bible study ” YES “Kogi Bible study” (Kogi being the Korean word for meat).
At the end of that Bible study he was told to offer an “apology testimony” repenting for not eating meat in front of the congregation.
Shirtly after thid they moved far, far away we eventually lost contact and we did not hear from them for many years. Unfortunately they no longer believe in Jesus partly because of the traumatic UBF cult training and false beliefs.

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19034 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:37:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19034 And yes one undocumented rule of UBFism is that 2nd Gen Koreans will inherit the ubf ministry, well what’s left of it.

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19033 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:35:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19033 Yes indeed Ben. The imposed generational identities in UBFism are used to create a community that is supposed to be stable and harmonious. Such a utopian idea would work, but the actual generational and personal identities keep changing as new people are born and as people live their lives. Human beings are not static creatures, and thus cannot live within a static ideological system.

This speaks to why the great experiement called America has in fact succeeded for many generations. America is an idea that has a small circle of essentials, not meant to create harmony but to allow unity.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19032 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:08:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19032 “…something about UBFism that is harmful. UBFism ignores the social generational discoveries and applies its own generation identities: 1st Gen Koreans, 2nd Gen Koreans and Natives.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19030

I would extend/expand this further by saying that 1st Gen Natives–such as yourself and countless others in countless nations–were and still are subject to 1st Gen Koreans, even when a 1st Gen Native is officially instated as the leader.

Under such a paradigm and system, no Native leader will ever be regarded as a leader with their own independent autonomy.

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19030 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:33:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19030 Very good thoughts, MJ. I think we need to be aware of our generational identities, which does shape our personal identities. For example, as I continue to reconnect with my identity that was stolen by ubf shepherds, I found it helpful to identify with my generation, which is the X Generation.

This may help to understand why I am like I am. Of course many other factors are involved, but the time and place we are born does impact us. For example, knowing that many Korean missionaries were born in the war-ravaged generations helps me to understand their infatuation with soldiers and fighting spirit. And it helps me to reject their ideas of sacrifice because many of those ideas are not helpful or healthy in today’s world or must be applied differently to someone in X Generation or the Millennial generation.

Here are some things I learned about Generation X that really apply to me, being born in 1969:

“The age range from Generation X as of 2014 is 33 to 53 (my broadest definition). In 2011, the first Gen-Xer turned 50 years old and the youngest turned 30. We are currently the “sandwich generation” in America. We are caring for aging parents and raising more than 50 percent of the nation’s children under 18.”
source

Like many X generation people I am: adrift, apathetic, cynical, entrepreneurial, educated, empathetic to ethnic diversity, am individualistic, have a casual disdain for everything especially authority, am technologically astute, flexible, seek out work-life balance, and had a rather unprotected childhood.

Here is a song from a popular X Generation band, Night Ranger:

X Generation

So here again we see something about UBFism that is harmful. UBFism ignores the social generational discoveries and applies its own generation identities: 1st Gen Koreans, 2nd Gen Koreans and Natives.

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By: MJ Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19029 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:49:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19029 As a millennial I am existential and post modern in my thinking. I appreciate post modernity because things are not black and white. Gender roles are not set in stone. Everything is questioned because there are no longer norms, marriage is no longer between a man and woman, being Asian doesn’t mean you’re good at math, simplistic reductionist answers like, “This is just the way it’s always be done” do not suffice. Conventional career options are not favored. Getting a BA is not enough anymore. Authority roles are not accepted easily, respect must be earned. Age is just a number. Millennials can spot phonies from a mile away. They grow up with the internet at their finger tips. We don’t learn things because someone told us, we learn something because we tried it ourselves. And when knowledge is experienced it means more. I agree with you Joe “Faith is a commitment that goes beyond rational thought. But faith is not irrational. A healthy faith embraces clear thinking, it doesn’t replace it.” Faith is subjective it is very very personal. “The heart has reasons of which reason knows nothing”- Pascal. And yet at the same time Faith and Logic are not mutually exclusive. Faith is based on presuppositions that seem illogical, but are true logic. Logic must come from somewhere from some presupposition and for Christians it comes from God. And that system works reasonably. God is both transcendent and immanent. His fingerprints are seen everywhere. Learning more about Him has taught me not to turn my mind off, but to use it to know Him more and at the same time know how I really know nothing.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19027 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:06:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19027 Raising 12 disciples is good. But a father of faith for Denmark needs a big, national-level vision and prayer topic.

“May the people of Denmark stop building Legoland and start building the kingdom of God through one-to-one Bible study!”

And when he gives his LT, he’d better be wearing this, because this is how they dress in Denmark.

http://costummer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/halloween__elite-viking-warrior-costume.jpg

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19026 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:46:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19026 One Word: A father of faith and the ancestor of faith and a good shepherd who gives his life and sacrificially lays down his life for 12 good looking boy disciples who can marry by faith with anyone, any time, any place, any how!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19025 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:31:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19025 From a proud useless intellectual hedonist to a Father of Faith for Denmark!

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19024 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19024 What would happen if Kierkegaard visited ubf? Well he did, in a way, as you point out in Montreal. If you go over the Montreal ubf website, they tell us how he was received:

“Søren Kierkegaard was known for his boyish good looks and his substantial contribution to existential philosophy. Yet it was his love and devotion to Jesus Christ that defined his existence so well. In fact he was the most despised philosopher of his generation, very willing to be a “fool for Christ”.” (source)

The core problem of UBFism is that the ideology gives you a new identity. Look at what they just did to Soren! He was just a good looking boy who thought too much. You can just hear the UBFism life testimony title:

FROM A BOYISH YOUNG MAN TO A FOOL FOR CHRIST

Hello, My name is Soren. I was a ruddy young man with boyish good looks. I had many wild and crazy ideas about existentialism. But now I am a fool for Christ!

One Word: From a good looking boy to a foolish shepherd!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19011 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:50:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19011 As I recall, in one of the chapters of True Spirituality, Francis Schaeffer launched a blistering attack against Christians who use the words of the Apostle Paul (those passages in 1 Corinthians) to discourage thinking and preach a populist anti-intellectual gospel. Good stuff.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19010 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:24:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19010 I confess that I don’t know much about Kierkegaard, but I did know that his “leap of faith” was heavily criticized by Francis Schaeffer. I find some of Schaeffer’s work (especially his True Spirituality material) to be very helpful. But his analysis and critiques of philosophers, not so much. He was lionized by the Religious Right because he was the only conservative evangelical tackling philosophy at a time when evangelicalism was extremely anti-intellectual. But Schaeffer is not the heavy hitting Christian thinker that some have made him out to be.

I’m sure there are contexts where encouraging the “leap of faith” can be very helpful. Faith is a commitment that goes beyond rational thought. But faith is not irrational. A healthy faith embraces clear thinking, it doesn’t replace it.

As I read that report from Montreal UBF, I was stunned. Well, not really. That kind of populist, anti-intellectual, let’s-stay-ignorant-and-be-proud-of-it characterization of faith has been rampant in UBF for as long as I can remember.

This is so ironic, and on so many levels. Think about it. A UBF chapter holds an event where shepherds are told to expand their minds by reading an actual philosopher. And their take-away message from Kierkegaard is, “All this thinkin’ and book learnin’ is nuthin’ but mumbo-jumbo. Let’s go back to our usual pure-uncomplicated–Bible-alone schtick and talk to university students at the level of middle schoolers, and when our peers ridicule us, let’s be proud that we have become fools for Christ and are getting persecuted for our faith!”

Against my better judgment, I am posting this report from the Central Pennsylvania Summer Bible Conference. Enjoy!

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19007 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:47:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19007 In Francis Schaeffer’s book The God Who is There, he singles out Kierkegaard as the guy who made existentialism a viable and thriving idea in the mind of modern man which subsequently ushered in relativism and post-modern thinking. Schaeffer sees Kierkegaard’s leap of faith as an illogicality which was based upon his poor interpretation of Genesis 22 where Abraham nearly sacrifices Isaac. I don’t necessarily agree with Schaeffer (who otherwise has nice things to say about Kierkegaard), but his line of thinking regarding the philosopher would probably resonate with conservative Christians who are weary of the effects of godless relativism and a po mo worldview. So most likely, Kierkegaard would not be welcome in most modern day evangelical circles. He would probably stand accused of ‘complicated/worldly human thinking’. A Rob Bell-ish or Brian McLaren type figure even. Obligatory John Piper meme: “you’ve played the wrong card, Kierkegaard.”

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By: MJ Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19004 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 03:06:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19004 “There had been much discussion in Denmark about the pseudonymous authors until the publication of Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments, 27 February 1846, where he openly admitted to be the author of the books because people began wondering if he was, in fact, a Christian or not.[110][111” (Wikipedia on kiekegaard, 110th footnote).

I can’t say much about Kierkegarrd, all I know is what I read from that comic book. He was a pretty controversial guy, people didn’t know if he was Christian or not according to Wikipedia. But in an attempt to answer your question, he would be very different if he was under the UBF system. UBF doesn’t necessarily encourage writing or philosophy. Kierkegaard probably would have been too busy with campus ministry and conf prep. But he was so eccentric, he wouldn’t have stayed in UBF.

Reading that article about the symposium on Kierkegaard is surreal. How did you find it? It s as if people can read anything and make it say what they want to say. That’s the danger of hermeneutics.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19002 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 20:02:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19002 And here’s a great report that captures the essence of Kierkegaard. http://www.ubf.org/world-mission-news/north-america/tyrannus-bible-academy-montreal-ubf

It funny to imagine what would happen if Kierkegaard showed up at UBF. Would he be recognized as a great Christian thinker? Or would he have been called a proud and useless intellectual who needed humbleness training to learn simple faith by putting away his books and focusing on inductive Bible study?

Would Kierkegaard have been allowed to become Kierkegaard if he had remained in UBF? If the answer is no, then something here doesn’t add up.

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By: MJ Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-19001 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:29:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-19001 I forgot to mention this other quote by Kierkegaard.

“Only in subjectivity is there decision, to seek objectivity is to be in error.”

And here’s comic book about Kierkegaard.
http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/kierkegaard-beginners.pdf

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18994 Sun, 09 Aug 2015 21:59:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18994 Galatians is where the Spirit led me a while back, and Job as well. Grace and Peace Hertoa.

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By: Hertoa http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18993 Sun, 09 Aug 2015 17:43:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18993 Thank you for your counsel! “Keep asking especially about the gospel of Jesus” — this morning, the Spirit led me out of the blue to begin a personal study in Galatians. It is marvelous, and thinking about the truth of the gospel, as well as how urgently Paul stressed its importance, has been a delight. I feel like God is doing good work through this, and I pray that it would be for His purpose. I’ll post back as I wrestle with the true meaning inside these passages. Lately, I have been in a state of confusion, and hallelujah what a treasure: “… Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” Galatians 1:7. I have a lot to think about. Cheers, all!

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18990 Sun, 09 Aug 2015 03:00:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18990 MJ, I would also recommend this song:

Fight song

A former member recommended this to us and I agree it is healing and helpful.

“Keep asking questions.”

Yes! +1 million. Keep asking. Don’t settle for contradictory answers. Keep asking especially about the gospel of Jesus!

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18989 Sun, 09 Aug 2015 00:14:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18989 Hi Hertoa, and welcome to ubfriends! You’ve found the right place to explore your faith as it relates to the ubf ministry context. There are many of us here who share your thoughts and have “been there”. Some of us may sound a tad bit bitter, but please understand that your organization has shredded the lives of thousands of people, swept many cases of abuse under the rug and cast people like me and my wife aside when we became “demon possessed” (their words, not mine).

I hope you will read some of our books:

I Choose: Subtlety in Cults (former Canadian ubf shepherdess)

Some of my books. I am the former Detroit ubf chapter director and a former Toledo ubf fellowship leader, having spent 24 years at ubf. If you contact me, I will send all of my books to you for free:

Goodness Found: The Butterfly Narratives

Identity Snatchers: Exposing a Korean Bible Cult (currently in editing mode, to be published this Fall)

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By: MJ Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18988 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 21:59:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18988 @BK- Great Song! I’ve never heard of Everlast before. I’m going to start listening to them.

@Hertoa- Please continue to visit your family! One Pastor said when talking about ministry, “Rule number 1: Love God. Rule number 2: Love your family. And ministry will fall in place.” I’ve known too many Pastor and missionary kids put on the altar for their parents’ ministries. As if ministry and family were mutually exclusive.Keep asking questions. 1 Thess 5:21

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By: Hertoa http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18986 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 19:14:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18986 I very much appreciate the article. The ideas you’ve presented are thoughts that have been coming back to me for some time now, especially concerning how we view others based on actions. Conformity to a standardized, but often unspoken, set of doctrines has been bothering me lately.

As a fairly new shepherd in a UBF chapter, I have already had a good deal of challenges working through the ministry. I cannot deny that all of the members are very dedicated, spirit-filled and God loving people who have a heart for “sheep”. I am only beginning to see, however, that at times we can lose sight of Jesus and pursue the comfort and assurance of dogma.

What you said about church activities resonates with me strongly. Though I love the heart and the commitment of the fellowship, I see that attending activities (absolutely) is a sign of spirituality, whereas choosing another activity is a sign of human desire and weakness. I see the guilt and coercion many are placed under because of this. For one young woman, a new member and a single mother, she had feelings of conviction for spending too much time caring for her baby rather than serving God by coming to meetings and fishing. This stood out to me as strange–though the others were impressed by her faith–since scripture emphasizes the massive importance of providing for and protecting your family and raising children well.

It has been the same for me. I study a rather long distance from where I was born. The UBF ministry emphasizes the singularity of our mission and our dedication to Christ can be measured by our commitment to remain in the “Promised Land”. In my case, returning to visit my family is a subject of subtle guilt and spiritual conviction. Making the decision to pursue my mission by faith has come with the promise that God would bless and protect my family if I entrust them to Him. On the other hand, I see how the increased strain I put on them by refusing to see them has caused great pain, especially to my mother, and perhaps spiritual damage as well. When I visit them, they are inspired at the work the Holy Spirit has done in my life and we share Bible studies, go to church regularly and talk about the Lord. God has worked greatly in their lives through this. I cannot deny the good work that He has done through my time with family. Yet, there is also the fear that by leaving my church fellowship and returning home I am compromising in God’s direction for my life.

I do not hold to the idea that keeping Sunday worship service is an obligation of Sabbath observation. I do hold that it is a personal decision of faith that we can make to love and honor God. Still, when the idea of missing a worship service–or another meeting, for that matter–crosses my mind, the guilt returns. My shepherdess encourages me to look at the faith of others who never return home to visit family, who have given up jobs and internships to come to worship service–I do not see these things as futile, they are clearly great works of faith. Right? But at the same time, it leads me into a sense of guilt about what I see as my spiritual duty to care for my family as well as God’s mission. “Give up Ishmael…”, but what about “Honor you father and mother”?

You are right that our position can be determined by our practice. What if I make a decision by faith to do something questionable in the eyes of UBF tradition? Have I dishonored God by disrespecting my ministry and refusing to hear the insights of my spiritual elders?

I pray that God would teach me His ways. As for finding this blog, I am extremely grateful. I have not yet had the opportunity to teach many students on my campus long enough to call them into the UBF ministry, but now my top prayer topic is that God would temper my Bible studies so that I do not use tactics of guilt, coercion and shaming. May His Holy Spirit guide me.

Thank you all, and God bless.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18985 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 15:36:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18985 Thanks, MJ, for your insightful post. This is so interesting to me: (When people hear I go to WL the first thing they ask is, “Do they do Bible Studies?” How is that even a question? What church does not read/study the Bible? That question is loaded; it implies that there is a certain way to do Bible Studies and other ways are not valid.)

A comment was made maybe about 10 years ago–just before WL started in 2008–that “Dr. Ben does not study the Bible, but only reads book.” This comment was made because I quoted from Rick Warren’s book, The Purpose Driven Church, instead of rehashing the UBF manuscript when I shared my testimony. Ever since then, this statement has taken on a vibrant life of its own, and seemingly continues to spread.

So, sorry West Loopers that NONE of you “do Bible study,” or “study the Bible!”

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/08/08/you-eat-a-no-meat-a/#comment-18984 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 13:45:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=9405#comment-18984 MJ, this article stirs up so much in me, but I don’t have the words to express myself yet. For now I want to share this song that shares my feelings. This is what living in Detroit taught me, and it is so very good:

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