Comments on: The Pain of Leaving UBF http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16650 Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:12:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16650 “To see this done, with business as usual continuing, was painful and anger inducing. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16648

Thank you Charles. Yes, it was anger inducing for me and for my wife. I believe that the anger we felt was righteous anger. God gets angry at abuse and injustice. But if we express that anger (even if we try to temper it) many will take it as prima facie evidence that we are unspiritual and wrong, and it becomes just another excuse for ignoring us and silencing us. It’s frustrating when, even now, people will say “I empathize with your pain” and then in the same sentence criticize you for expressing it.

]]>
By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16649 Mon, 23 Feb 2015 11:40:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16649 I think this is the first time there are more comments on Facebook (74) than on UBFriends (18): https://www.facebook.com/ben.toh.9/posts/10153139652119490?comment_id=10153144189369490&notif_t=feed_comment

Charles, I think you’re not on Facebook, but your last comment would fit right in: “…much of my time in UBF was painful. It was painful to see a so-called church systematically abuse people in the name of shepherding, praise those who did so, and then vilify and ignore those who either left or spoke against the issues. It was painful to see the whole congregation be asked to pray for such and such UBF chapter to have a big conference with many attendees while knowing that that very chapter has hurt people and ignored it. To see this done, with business as usual continuing, was painful and anger inducing. And then it happened to me too.

After leaving, I experienced the very things mentioned here. I realized how isolated my life had become. The feelings of deception, of embarrassment in becoming a self-absorbed fool for so long, of disappointment and betrayal, were all painful. But in the end I’m glad to have left and stood by my convictions with the support of my wife because despite the pains, it sure feels great to feel like I’m becoming human again. It has been simultaneously painful and difficult, and still exciting and wonderful.”
– See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#sthash.6xYMj7U8.dpuf

]]>
By: c http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16648 Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:44:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16648 “I feel as though I am becoming human again.” Thanks, Joe. This sentence perfectly sums up my current feelings for the very same reasons. I have been experiencing the very pains and conflicts that you, David and Brian have mentioned here. But ultimately I am glad for it, even though there are still many questions left to be answered and discovered, such as finding a new church.

The fear of experiencing these pains can be paralyzing and also painful. At one point, they were used as threats for me to fall back in line with UBF. I wouldn’t be considered a “leader” and would be disqualified from being a director candidate (for not attending the 2013 International Conference). I was in UBF for 15 years, since I was 17, right out of high school. I was at times afraid of leaving everything I had built up in my adult life.

Being as busy as I was in UBF, my wife would sometimes tell me to stop doing a particular activity, saying, “Can’t someone else do it?” This bothered me so much because of course the answer is, “Yes.” I’m not offering anything unique in the world. There is someone else who can do everything that I do every day. But if I give up what I do because someone else can do it, then what will I do?

But it also became too painful to stay in UBF; and much of my time in UBF was painful. It was painful to see a so-called church systematically abuse people in the name of shepherding, praise those who did so, and then vilify and ignore those who either left or spoke against the issues. It was painful to see the whole congregation be asked to pray for such and such UBF chapter to have a big conference with many attendees while knowing that that very chapter has hurt people and ignored it. To see this done, with business as usual continuing, was painful and anger inducing. And then it happened to me too.

After leaving, I experienced the very things mentioned here. I realized how isolated my life had become. The feelings of deception, of embarrassment in becoming a self-absorbed fool for so long, of disappointment and betrayal, were all painful. But in the end I’m glad to have left and stood by my convictions with the support of my wife because despite the pains, it sure feels great to feel like I’m becoming human again. It has been simultaneously painful and difficult, and still exciting and wonderful.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16636 Sun, 22 Feb 2015 01:21:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16636 No, mindless idiots is not at all what I had in mind. It is precisely because that they are talented, thoughtful and sincere people that they feel stifled (like they can’t breathe) and want out.

But thank you for the clarification. I should have said “estranged from ubf.”

Yes, bad experiences with a single church can turn people off to Christianity and they might not want to even look for another church. That is unfortunate, because there are good churches out there.

Integrity is an interesting word. I know some people from ubf who have integrity, and some who don’t. Is there more integrity to be found in ubf as a group than in other churches? Not clear at all.

]]>
By: friend http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16635 Sun, 22 Feb 2015 01:11:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16635 I would say that all elder missionary families have children who have left ubf, but not all have children who have become estranged because of ubf.

Are you saying that second gens have to either run far away or become mindless idiots who are staying just to marry? I would say that they fall into a larger category of millennialists who are disillusioned with organized religion and seek authenticity in their lives and relationships. They may be disillusioned by ubf but nothing else is that attractive either. But the bonds they’ve formed in ubf is genuine and it says something about the integrity of the members to want to marry someone from a group that you’re not that excited about.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16630 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:43:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16630 Based on what I gave seen, people who leave ubf (especially those who were in for a long time) go through a process of grieving that is not unlike experiencing the death of a loved one. But that process takes time. It affects people in different ways. And it is complicated by the fact that some of us (especially the old timers) were trained to be soldiers who act but don’t feel. We became very proficient at suppressing pain, question, and doubt. So it may take time before the emotional impact hits. My mother died in 2004. There was an initial shock, but the actual emotional grieving came later and not all at once.

The FB comment that Ben posted here was not coming from my need to share my pain. I wanted to open up and say something meaningful to a very nice, likeable and sincere young lady who grew up in ubf and is still there.

]]>
By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16627 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:26:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16627 Great thoughts everyone. Ben, you asked “Will you share your pain of leaving UBF?”

I got tired of doing that so I wrote three books to tell my authentic narrative. That gave me a lot of freedom and relief to pursue other things and yet still be a voice for healing:

Goodness Found: The Butterfly Narratives

(Warning: This book contains many trauma triggers for ex-ubf people, especially former ubf leaders like myself. Read at your own risk. In time, though, this book may prove to be the most helpful to ubf people.)

]]>
By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16626 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:43:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16626 “Will you share your pain of leaving UBF?”

Ben, when you told me that people were beginning to say that I have become negative toward UBF because of you and Ubfriends, I began drafting an article that would dispel that notion. But as I was writing, about both the good and bad, I realized that UBF has already taken up enough of my time. I don’t want to give the organization more attention than it has already demanded. Additionally, if people want to believe that I can’t think for myself and make educated observations about what I deem are very unhealthy ideologies and practices, then I feel sorry for them. They are basically projecting on to me what they have lived through their entire time in UBF, which is, they have been thoroughly convinced that they need to leave the hard thinking up to someone else, God’s chosen servant perhaps. So it’s only natural that they would think that someone senior to me, like you, is able to influence the way that I think and behave. That, to me, is a very tragic form of deception to be caught in. I may finish and publish that article, but right now, I feel as though dwelling on those things will take me to an unhealthy place. But eventually, I know that I will have to delve into this and somehow come to grips with it. Currently, I am enjoying my time away from the ministry, but we’ll see what happens. This recent blog post from someone who knows all too well about PTCS deeply resonates with me:

Christian culture doesn’t have a category for grief and anger over wrongs done in God’s name. They see it all as cynicism.

Anger is messy and frightening to Christian culture. It puts you in close touch with your raw humanity and doubt. This makes an essential step of the grieving process, anger, a threat to those who don’t know how to hold grief and sadness alongside possibility and mystery. They feel Jesus’s tantrum in the temple was okay, but all other anger stemming from abuses by those in religious authority will be swiftly shamed.link

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16625 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:58:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16625 yes, the stories I’ve heard of how they are treated are very sad

]]>
By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16624 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:57:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16624 Someone mentioned doctored photos recently, so I dug up the link:

ubf newsletter and fake photos

One of my pains of leaving ubf was to see ubf from the outside and to notice how fake the whole ministry really is. ubf trained me to be a good actor, pretending to be holy when I knew nothing about holiness.

]]>
By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16623 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:55:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16623 Who do I feel sorry for? The gay and lesbian children of ubf people. Some of them have contacted me.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16621 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:42:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16621 Two more groups that I feel sorry for.

Missionaries who, because of ubf ideology, pushed their children so hard to follow in their footsteps, pressing upon them a “spiritual identity” that was not truly theirs. Many children of ubf missionaries felt they had no choice but to get far, far away from their parents otherwise they couldn’t breathe. Not long ago, I asked a Chicago elder: “How many of the elder missionaries have children who are estranged from them because of ubf?” His response: “All of them.” Unfortunately this hardcore training of 2nd gens continues. http://ubf.org/world-mission-news/north-america/new-jersey-ubf-25th-celebration

Children of missionaries who feel boxed into a church that doesn’t inspire them, that they are embarrassed by and must continually (in their minds) make excuses and apologize for, because they find the teaching at best tolerable but often boring, repetitive, childish, and sometimes offensive. Yet they cannot openly discuss this with their parents, because it will create too much conflict. And they cannot bear to leave either, because it would be too costly. It would put further strain on their families, distance them from their circle of friends. And it would block the pathways to marriage that ubf provides. They hold out hope that they can maneuver within the system to find and marry someone they like (in some cases they can). So they continue to stay and play the game, even though they wish they didn’t have to.

No, Ben, the leaders of ubf needn’t feel sorry for me. As Jesus said: “Do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children…”

]]>
By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16610 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:41:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16610 perhaps that speaker effect happens with many religious/civic organizations (for example I work as a social worker so I attend an occasional inservice-work induced or seminar-vendor offered; I’ve been a social worker quite awhile so I’m more interested in “free”/convenient/food included:), since I mainly need continuing ed credits for periodic license renewal-speaker quality becomes only a bonus unless it’s a cutting edge helpful topic;

on the other hand if perhaps we become a relevant/useful voice in religious or civic topics we may end up with an audience

]]>
By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16609 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:30:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16609 That was one of the saddest and happiest days of my life! Oh, what fond and sweet memories God has granted us.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16608 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:27:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16608 Yeah Ben you weren’t a white boy. But for a while there, you were super famous and the envy of the world because your fellowship was full of HNWs who were even rarer and more prized than us white boys. What was your secret? Many thanks for sending me one of those HNWs.

]]>
By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16604 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:27:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16604 Maybe I am highly fortunate here since I never got chosen to speak at major conferences (except once in 1989). Why? Sure, I’m not a gifted speaker. My spoken English is with a colloquial Malaysian British accent that often does not pronounce consonants distinctly and clearly. But the main reason is because I wasn’t a “WHITE BOY!” :-)

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16599 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:29:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16599 Another thing that was hard to give up. When I was in UBF, I was often chosen to speak at conferences. Getting up on stage and giving a message before hundreds or thousands of people was a heady experience. That will probably never happen again.

But here’s the thing: Those environments were artificially created, and much of that audience was a captive audience. People came because their commitment to ubf essentially required them to be there. They would have come to the conference even if the main speaker was Shepherd Elmer Fudd or Shepherd Donald Duck. Many in the audience weren’t actually looking at me; they were looking past me to see the glorious ubf project. Most of them weren’t listening to me; they were sifting through my words to hear the voice of SL and the glorious ideas that captured their hearts in decades past. If I didn’t have a ready-made audience of ubf listeners, would hundreds or thousands of people have showed up and even paid money to register for a conference to hear me preach? No way. Because, in the wider context of American Christianity, my messages weren’t very good; the things that I had to say weren’t especially profound. When ubf people would say “Thank you for your beautiful message,” it meant very little, because they said that all the time, and whatever beauty that they heard in my message was so mixed up with their love of ubf ideology and their hopes for ubf that it had very little to do with whatever small contributions were uniquely mine.

That was hard to give up, but it was very healthy for me to give it up.

]]>
By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16598 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:07:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16598 Thanks Joe. I don’t think I could have stayed in UBF if I was going to continue “playing the game” and “towing the party line.” I have and will continue to speak up both in public forums and in emails and in private or public face to face meetings, knowing that I am going to be accused of all sorts of things, the latest “cute one” being that “Dr. Ben started a UBF hate website!” So sorry, Joe, that some people seemed determined to give me credit that I clearly do not deserve…

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/02/21/the-pain-of-leaving-ubf/#comment-16597 Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:54:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8884#comment-16597 Thank you Ben. I have no problem with you posting it.

Yes, there is pain in leaving. But I regard it as a pain associated with purification and healing. There is a sorrow and mourning for what was lost, but that sorrow is mixed with hope and joy.

You are absolutely correct that I do not want sympathy from ubf leaders. They shouldn’t pity me, because I am in a much healthier place, and I am encountering God in ways that I never could when I was among them. I am restoring relationships with my family that were essentially cut because of ubf, and I am establishing relationships with people in the community that I used to ignore because I had no use for them (they weren’t potential sheep). I feel as though I am becoming human again.

But I often feel sorry for them. Especially for those who feel that they could never leave ubf because they would lose everything they ever worked for and their whole lives would amount to nothing. Or those who feel trapped because ubf has been their lifelong employer and if they left their job prospects are nil. Or those who could never leave because they have cut ties with their families and ubf has become their safety net, and if they left they would be totally alone and lost in the world. I do feel sorry for them. The ubf ship is listing. If it sinks, some will choose to go down with the ship. That makes me sad.

]]>